10 November 2009

Latin?

Does anyone know where the Latin texts of yesterday's documents are?

16 comments:

rev'd up said...

Not available. I believe this document was originally composed in English and translated into Italian. Who knows if a Latin translation will ever be available? I believe the subtleties present in the English text are intentional; it is not an issue of translation.

Fr William said...

Surely it must have, at least nominally, a Latin original if it has a Latin title. Documents which have their normative version in another language have their title in that language (e.g. Mit brennender Sorge, Tra le sollecitudini). But I can't find it online.

Looking for loopholes, Father?

Christian Rideout said...

Methinks that the Latin title is a deference to Anglicans' love of Latin, despite Article XXIV.

Figulus said...

It certainly will be translated into Latin eventually for publication in the Acta. It may be translated already. But www.vatican.va often lags far behind the Acta, and the Acta often lag considerably from initial publication.

It took the Latin Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae years (4 years? 5 years?) to catch up to the initial French publication.

Andrew said...

There are several points in the constitution where Latin phrases are also given: Is the purpose of this to give the precise meaning of an original Latin text that is here translated, or simply to show how it connects to existing Canon Law?

for example:

§3 Each Ordinariate possesses public juridic personality by the law itself (ipso iure); it is juridically comparable to a diocese.12

V. The power (potestas) of the Ordinary is...

§2. The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula)

Joshua said...

The sad truth is that even in Papal Rome, no one writes good Latin anymore; and Fr Reggie Foster, having been sick unto death, is far behind in his herculean chore of translating everything back into the Latin originals!

Nebuly said...

'The sad truth is that even in Papal Rome, no one writes good Latin anymore'

Perhaps a move for Fr Hunwicke?

Cherub said...

Joshua says, "The sad truth is that even in Papal Rome, no one writes good Latin anymore." What is the evidence for this? You forget that in Rome Latin is still the language of the Church and therefore subject to some development. What is good Latin - Catullus, Virgil, Augustine, St Thomas? Joshua ared you really in any position to make that statement? If so, please provide the justification.

Joshua said...

I wasn't referring to the style of Latin written - I was referring to the fact that nearly all business is transacted in Italian, etc., not Latin, as once it would have been. Official documents are then back-translated into Latin, rather than originally composed in that language.

Cherub said...

OK Joshua. I see what you mean. Yes, it is true that business is done in Rome mainly in Italin. I know this because I have worked on committes in Rome for some years. In some other situations another language is used. For example, The Catechism was originally worked out in French and later pput into Latin as the official text. In the case of Anglicanorum Coetibus English has, appropriately, been the language used and I imagine will be the official text for what is after all an English speaking speaking community. Sorry Joshua to have misunderstood your intent.

Joshua said...

Sorry about that - I didn't make my meaning very clear. I am rather naive: I was quite shocked when I discovered that the decrees and whatnot coming from the Holy See are not drafted and prepared in Latin; as when I learnt that, whatever the Code of Canon Law may say about seminarians having to know Latin as an ordination requirement, it is almost a dead letter. Come to think of it, didn't the Anglican Ordinal require Latin of ordinands until the last forty years or so?

Veterum Sapientia was issued just too late to stem the tide; unfortunately, many of Good Pope John's well-meaning decisions had all manner of unforeseen consequences...

Cherub said...

Joshua I agree with you about the wilfull abandonment of Latin in seminaries leading to two generations of priess who either do not know the language at all or are insufficiently aware of it. Against that there are parts of the world where Latin was not used so much, especially in Asian countries. But having said that I remember early meetings of the Pontifical Academy to which I belong when the daily Mass was offered in Italian. The members got together to discuss this. The men and women were academics from a wide range of cultures from East to West. Only a minority understood the vernacular Italian commonly used in the Vatican. Discussion revealed that the only language we had in common was - LATIN. The authorities responded warmly and well when this was pointed out and all future Masses have been said and sung in Latin withe Kyries (Greek), and the readings and prayers of the faithful were said in various vernacular languages of the members. So, the 1st reading might be in Spanish and the Gospel in French. Petitions in the prayers of the faithful represented many languages as each petition was offered by a different person. For me, the Mass in Italian was not a problem, but it was for many others. I also love the Latin language and regularly say significant parts of the Mass in latin as wel as celebrating in the EF at least once a week. So I believe Latin should be both recovered and retained.

Joshua said...

Very glad to hear about the sensible use of Latin as the common tongue of all. I am reminded of the tale told by an old English friend of mine: as an officer with the Gurkhas, after fighting through Burma, he and his were sent to receive the Japanese surrender in Vietnam; and he was at Christmas Mass in Hanoi Cathedral in 1945, with Frenchmen, Vietnamese, Indian, Chinese, yes even Japanese Catholics, all singing Credo in unum Deum together.

(It may amuse this blog to know how his later emigration to Tasmania (after stints in Malaya and Kenya) flummoxed the local Catholics, who were mainly of Irish stock, though taking in increasing numbers of Continentals since after the War: they couldn't cope with the fact that he and his wife were both staunchly English and staunchly Catholic - it just didn't compute!)

Whatever of that, I will critique three bizarre modern practices:

* lay readers at a Mass with large numbers of clergy present - why? tokenism? (especially for the lady reader) - when surely an instituted lector, properly vested, would be better;
* vernacular readings in this week's assortment of languages - if for the solemn Gospel Latin and Greek are the height of good taste, why do the others in some vulgar tongue? don't people have missals?
* the strange tedium of a procession of petitioners reading prayers of the faithful in a medley of languages, when surely a deacon singing a litany, be it fixed or freely composed, would be far more agreeable with Catholic order, tradition and decorum.

Glad to read of the previous commenter's usage of Latin in both the old and new forms of Mass - bravo.

Joshua said...

I see that there are now Portuguese and Spanish versions of Anglicanorum cœtibus available on the Vatican website, alongside the Italian and English.

Could not Fr Hunwicke or some similar scholar back-translate from these three Romance languages into Latin, checking with the English as he goes?

A wise man might carefully render the Latin so as to maximise the blessings being brought by this Apostolic Constitution...

Joshua said...

Then mail it anonymously to the Vatican...

Figulus said...

As Joshua has already pointed out elsewhere on this blog, the Latin text is at long last available:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus_lt.html